Recollection of the birth of SunAir

[fppilot]

I have to stretch my memory somewhat for this. After all, it’s been at least 15 years! Some real airlines don’t last that long. Here is what I recall that led to the birth of SunAir, as best as I can recall it. I believe you may find it interesting.

Like many others, I was an early MS FS customer. Version 1.0 was the first entertainment package I got for my IBM PC. I was the second retail IBM PC customer in Oklahoma. The Oklahoma City Computerland store owner was the first. I recall always being frustrated by the limitations of the early versions. The limitations included a nominal number of aircraft. Only rudimentary controls and systems, and a very limited number of scenery areas (Chicago to Champaign; Seattle; LA to San Diego; and NYC).

Microsoft did not do much to enhance the experience. Enthusiasts began to gather on the original text based Compuserve communications system, which was a rate-based system. So much $0.0X per minute. Messaging was tough and expensive. Still that was where we found others, and where we learned about new products. One of those new products was 3rd party add on scenery sets. They came as defined areas of the country and included VORs and ILS approaches. They were published and marketed by subLogic, the original creators of Flight Simulator. Word also got out about a new flight simulator from subLogic, but it became regarded as “vaporware”, because it’s reported arrival was delayed again and again. Later we would learn of litigation between Microsoft and subLogic. In any case, somewhere around 1990, ATP Flight Assignment made it to the market. I believe each of us bought it instantly and were astounded with it’s completeness and incredible flight modeling!

Along came a graphics interface, flat-rate per month communications service called Prodigy. This was a standalone service and well before the internet matured. As enthusiasts we found each other there and had one of the most active topics on the service. At the outset, we were ATP enthusiasts, sharing and enjoying our learning experiences. My own family lost track of me. Prodigy was slow, so the combination of the excitement from more realistic flying and the ability to share that with others consumed a lot of hours.

The areas of realism in ATP had us in awe. ATP included a small booklet called the QRH, or Quick Reference Handbook. It provided a page for each ATP aircraft, and provided nominal settings for cruise speed and fuel flow for the various stages of flight. ATP also included 50 pre-structured flight assignments, and graded the pilot at the end of the flight based on airmanship, ability to follow instructions, and efficiency. Each of those areas tested us, and we learned as a group.

The more we learned, the more we wanted to learn. Among us were a few who held FAA licenses. I did too, but I was last current in 1978. One of the areas we did a lot of experimenting on was fuel burn, as it related directly to the score for efficinecy. We started doing empirical tests to improve our scores, divvying up the work. I recall I worked on climbs. Rate of climb and forward speed. I must have completed 50 climbs starting from level departure cruise of 5,000 ft. Each test was at a different rate of climb, or different forward speed, or both. I charted the tests on graph paper, and labeled each with the fuel burned, which was calculated from multiple reads of ATP’s status screen. Other Prodigy members took other parts of the testing. Someone tested burns in various ATP models at different cruise speeds and cruise altitudes, and someone else tested burns for descent rates at various forward speeds. Still another did the tests on takeoff and climb to initial cruise of 5,000 ft. It even came down to tests of what slower speeds and shallow rate of descents were most efficient without getting you into trouble with ATC. At this point we were working only on improving our scores. We eventually started scoring 100 on efficiency on every flight.

Jim started to conjecture that our testing may have allowed us to learn how to “cheat” the scoring system. Then something really incredible happened.

One of the enthusiasts who found our group on Prodigy was a fellow by the name I believe of Rich Federco (to the best of my recollection). If I recall correctly, this person did not fly ATP Flight Assignment, but had found us and marveled at the activity he saw. He worked in flight ops for I believe American Airlines at Newark International, and disclosed that to us when he saw the robust discussion on fuel burn. His job exposed him to the post-flight reports that the American pilots were required to complete for each flight. Amazingly, enroute time and fuel burn were among the elements of those real-world reports.

Jim reached out to him and asked what American flight we could attempt to duplicate in ATP to check again real world results. I believe the flight he came back with was a daily flight from Newark to Charlotte. Almost immediately several of us took up a challenge from Jim and made the flight in ATP. The American employee came back to us with real results. Both the enroute times and fuel burn were tantalizing close, but the ATP burns were lower. Jim looked at the American data and noted that it included winds aloft at various altitudes. We did our EWR to CLT testing all over again, this time setting wind directions and speeds as best as we could, and the results were then incredibly close.

EWR to CLT inspired Jim’s idea for an ATP based airline, where pilots would fly an assigned route and report results, just like real life. Within days it came together, and SunAir was born.

And my old SunAir signature line:
0005/Patton/STL/Chief

Frank Patton
Fppilot

[Marty_Becker]

Frank:

Very interesting!

Thanks!

[David Vega]

Frank,

Welcome back. Still SunAir Express, still the hunger to learn more, still the quest for realism, now with a small dose of compromise for entertaining value.

Interesting to know the quest for realistic fuel figures started the VA concept. I do clearly remember each flight presented the challenge to optimize as much as possible to maximize fuel efficiency. Today we're rated on timeliness. Fuel ratings went away because, unlike with ATP, we do not mandate a specific set of airplanes; your PMDG B737-700 burns fuel differently than the freeware B737-700 provided in the downloads, etc. The on-time goals in each flight have their own inherent challenges. The Pilot Operating Center rates the flight based on a block time (gate-to-gate). This block time sums up taxi and flight time. Taxi times are based on FAA average taxi times for a set of airports for which we have the data, and a standard time of 12" out and 5" in for the rest. Flight time is based on several sources. You can quickly tell that this flight time should change throughout the year based on seasonal winds aloft. If you feel the block time for a flight is too much or not enough, let us know.

Hope you find your time with SunAir as rewarding as when you formed it.

702/Vega/STL/Chief

[Nate R]

Great info thanks for sharing and its a pleasure to meet you. Its pretty cool how this all came together.

[kdundon]

Welcome back Frank, boy were those days fun or what. I still remember them quite well. I still chucle over the landing one of the original pilots made into Tampa Bay just a little short of the runway. Good to see more of the guys coming back to their roots. Ken, 007

[Marty_Becker]

Ken:

That landing was by Bill "Fletch" Fletcher. I bet he wrote several pages describing the event. Back when there was no ability for screen shots or multi-player sessions to watch each other, a textual description was all we had to convey our adventures. Amazing how a few good words last in our memories.

[fppilot]

Ken and Marty,
Good to hear from you both. I have still been too busy to get through my learning curves (plural) so I can get recurrent! I am learning the PMDG 737-700, the FD in that model, and FSCARS. I am also off glidescope (pun) on approaches. Like the old days I like to come off of autopilot at the IAF. I don't have the equivilent of the ATP QRH, so I am experimenting with power, speed and ROD. The PMDG 737 seems to react slow to changes in power from my CH Pro Yoke. Still getting the feel of it, but have been too busy the past 10 days to get back after it!

Here I am in the left seat of ...... what? Want to take any guesses? One hint. There are four power levers.

[Marty_Becker]

Frank:

Try 55% power, 30 degrees of flaps and gear down. That is a good ballpark configuration to get you descending on the glide path.

[David Vega]

... and Frank, when you get into the automated flight, you'll see the flight management computer even tells you the VREF or landing reference speed. That's what I use to land when I switch off the autopilot.

Regards,

Dave Vega
SAX702

[fppilot]

Marty and David,
Thanks to both of you. I will move to the 55% setting Marty. I recall the ATP 737 keeping FF about 2500 for level approach speed, then making very little adjustments after lowering gear and extending more flaps as the added drag at that setting helped it settle into the correct ROD. I have the ref speeds, I just have trouble making small adjustments. It may be just a characteristic of the PMDG model.

Neither of you took a stab at the cockpit in my photo!

[Marty_Becker]

Frank,

Lockheed Super Constellation.

[fppilot]

I guess I should have renamed the photo! The European non-profit that refurbed the Connie here in California flew it to Europe in 2004. By lark I was able to fly on it prior to that flight. Amazing as a TWA Super Connie was the first airplane I ever flew on when I was in Jr. high school. Kansas City to Miami.

SFCA has a pretty amazing FS9 model available on their site. Back in 2004 I used the model and mirrored their ferry flight across the US, Newfoundland, Greenland, Scotland, and to the continent.

[Marty_Becker]

Frank:

The overhead panel gave it away.

Marty

[lental]

Waaalllll...I can't believe I'm almost 10 years late in responding to this thread but I have truly enjoyed reading the recollections of early members of SAX. We really had a great thing going on Prodigy and it took a while to get things back on track after the changed from a flat-rate service for $12.95 per month to a per minute charge like some of the other services. I mentioned in a post the last time I commented here that the change would have cost me around $112.00 per month just for flying SAX not including normal messaging. The change caused the demise of Prodigy and almost did SAX in as well. We scattered to a variety of other services but managed to stay in touch and eventually came back together on the internet.

Frank Patton's description of the testing we did in ATP was spot-on and it was a fascinating time, leading directly to Jim's founding of SAX. Here are couple of things I've noted. Jim identified himself as 911 but I think he actually reserved pilot #001 for himself. I don't know who #002 was. Rich Gasperin was #003, I was #004, Frank Patton was #005, Marty was, I think, #008. I'd love to attach names to the first 10 or 20 pilot numbers. It's interesting that Jim made the decision not to reassign pilot numbers as people moved in an out of SAX because by not doing that, it provides a running record of not only who participated but approximately when and what the total number was of individuals who have participated in the SunAir experience.

One last thing. Marty is wrong about his recollection of the infamous Tampa Bay landing. It was NOT Bill Fletcher, it was ME!!! I don't know why I did not receive as much virtual publicity as did the famous Capt. Sullenberger of US Airways for his "Miracle on the Hudson" landing in 2011. None of my passengers even had to leave their seats. I refueled on the water then taxied under the causeway bridge, lowered my wheels and rolled right up to the end of the runway and on to the terminal for a normal deboarding. I think that flight may have been while we were experimenting with fuel burn rates on the flight from EWR to TPA and before the founding of SAX. I was flying a 767 with a full load of passengers (that weight has to be considered in the equation) and I had cut my fuel weight to a bare minimum to keep my overall weight low. Had I been able to land on 18 instead of 36, I would have made it. As it was, I ran out of fuel about a half mile short of the end of Runway 36R.

One other thing I recall is that Rich Gasperin created some golf shirts with the SunAir Express logo. I still have mine and wear it infrequently because it has a special place in my heart and I don't want anything to happen to it. I wonder how many people actually bought those shirts and how many are still around.

Actually, I can't believe it's been ten years since I checked in on SAX. Even worse, I can't believe it's been 26 years since Rich Gasperin's wife shot the photo of our breakfast with Jim back in 1991. I can't believe I'll be 80 years old on my next birthday.

In any case, merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all of you SunAir people and thanks for keeping SAX alive.

Len Taliaferro
Mr. T
SAX004

[lental]

Marty -- I note that you are NOT SAX008 but SAX054. Surely your number is not that high. I thought you were in at the beginning though we did grow pretty fast when the word got out.

Dave -- Do you guys have a list of the names of all the pilots who have flown for SunAir. If so, could you post a list of the first 20-24. I'm sure those names will stir up some stories about the early days.

Thanks,

Len Taliaferro
SAX004

[Dave Blake]

Dave -- Do you guys have a list of the names of all the pilots who have flown for SunAir. If so, could you post a list of the first 20-24. I'm sure those names will stir up some stories about the early days.
Thanks,
Len Taliaferro
SAX004

Len,
Great to hear from you again! I do have a SAX "Master Pilots List" but it is far from complete. Here's what I have for the first 100 ID numbers.

0002 Richard Gasperin
0003 Richard Gasperin
0004 Len Taliaferro, Jr.
0005 Frank Patton
0007 Kenneth Dundon
0009 Kenneth Baumgarten
0010 Thomas Warren
0011 Juergen Vollmer
0015 William Fletcher
0017 Odas Parsons
0018 Timothy Labrie
0023 Michael Sokolov
0024 Tim Wagner
0027 Jim Ley
0028 Kenny Oswald
0033 Jordan Bicknell
0034 Thierry Weber
0045 Sim Prescott
0046 Jim Wilson
0051 Jan Schultz
0054 Marty Becker
0076 Adam E. Miller
0089 James Bond
0098 Dean R. Haeusler

Keep 'em flying!

[lental]

Dave -- Thanks for posting this list. I'm saving the list and will do some digging over the holidays to see if I have any communications remaining from the early SunAir days. Back in 2007, I commented that I had sent most of my correspondence stuff to someone and I had hoped the list might jog my memory as to who it might have been. It did not. But there's a possibility that I may have a few pieces remaining. We'll see. It's good to see that several names on your original list are still active. Makes me wonder I ought to get involved again. I still fly FSX and am actually considering P3D but I haven't flown an FSX airliner in years. Marcia and I are doing a lot of traveling and cruising, but it get's pretty boring making those long flights to Europe...even in real life. It's certainly not fun in FSX. My current preference is flying low and slow over some of the places we've actually visited. One thing for sure is that in FSX you can make those trips go a lot faster by taking on libations during the slow times. Sometimes that makes landings a little scary but in the virtual world, no one cares.

Going forward, even if I decide not to come out of retirement, I'll check in more frequently that every ten years.

It's good visiting with you guys. Have a great Christmas!!!

Len Taliaferro
Mr. T
SAX004